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PostSubject: Starbucks Inside a Church   Mon May 12, 2008 2:57 am

Unbelievable.
Talk about not getting it.


Back-story: My brother Paul told me about a church he went to today with high-definition TVs and a coffee shop inside.
But not just church-goers handing out coffee:

A real, live Starbucks.
I'm not so self-righteous to be really THAT pissed off, but come ON.
The pastor is O.K. with this?
The congregation is O.K. with this?
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Mon May 12, 2008 11:07 am

Starbucks really pisses me off. They're expensive and taste terrible. What is so bad about it being in a church though? People like it and it may encourage people to come more since they can get their morning addiction fed. As long as the church isn't turning into something like in Luke 45:48 I see no problem
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Mon May 12, 2008 11:29 am

47.5 wrote:
Starbucks really pisses me off. They're expensive and taste terrible. What is so bad about it being in a church though? People like it and it may encourage people to come more since they can get their morning addiction fed. As long as the church isn't turning into something like in Luke 45:48 I see no problem


My opinion, for what it's worth:
1-The Church should be a Holy Place where people come to worship, not to feed the animal that is greed. Starbucks represents greed.
2-If people come to church BECAUSE there's a Starbucks, they're not going to hear the message anyway. If the reasoning is to get people to church, you've (the church) has already said it's O.K. to spend $4.00 on a cup of coffee, rather than put in toward the offering. It's sort of like having a bar there, and then the bartender trying to "explain" the Holy Spirit to someone.

The last part of the argument I haven't really seen through yet - it's just my initial reaction.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:59 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
47.5 wrote:
Starbucks really pisses me off. They're expensive and taste terrible. What is so bad about it being in a church though? People like it and it may encourage people to come more since they can get their morning addiction fed. As long as the church isn't turning into something like in Luke 45:48 I see no problem


My opinion, for what it's worth:
1-The Church should be a Holy Place where people come to worship, not to feed the animal that is greed. Starbucks represents greed.
2-If people come to church BECAUSE there's a Starbucks, they're not going to hear the message anyway. If the reasoning is to get people to church, you've (the church) has already said it's O.K. to spend $4.00 on a cup of coffee, rather than put in toward the offering. It's sort of like having a bar there, and then the bartender trying to "explain" the Holy Spirit to someone.

The last part of the argument I haven't really seen through yet - it's just my initial reaction.


Idk i dont really think its that bad. I actually think its more of good. Ok so obviously you know EVERYTHING is about heart condition, and this pastor with give you that (trust me). I think the plasma screen tv's and the starbucks and the fancy church itself will actually draw people in, and once they are in, then theres pretty much no escaping getting interested and most likey saved
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:17 am

Quote :
Idk i dont really think its that bad. I actually think its more of good. Ok so obviously you know EVERYTHING is about heart condition, and this pastor with give you that (trust me). I think the plasma screen tv's and the starbucks and the fancy church itself will actually draw people in, and once they are in, then theres pretty much no escaping getting interested and most likey saved


Philip!

It's great to hear from you!
Smile

Since you're biting, I will answer, though. Smile

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "The Heart Condition", LOL.
My point simply goes to this: Is a PLASMA TV really necessary?
Let's think about what Jesus brought.
Think about the KINGDOM he brought.
Was it all about "getting saved", or did He have a purpose, and a mission?
I think it's the latter.
His Kingdom was about giving to the poor and needy.
THAT'S what He meant by "bringing the 'Gospel' to the nations" or
however He put that.
We seem to get a little hung up on who is "saved" and who is not.
Off-hand, I can't remember Jesus actually mentioning that, although
maybe he does.
Jesus was a Man of action, and He talked endlessly about ACTIONS, not thought.
O.K., so we're "saved". So what?
Faith without works is DEAD.
Not shitty or sucky, mind you: DEAD.
I really, really, really think the Gospel is about ACTION, and how we can
help our fellow man, especially those who have a hard time helping themselves.

Know what I mean?







By the way, I think I'll be coming through Atlanta around the middle
of August, if you'd like to hang out.
My number is (479) 855-2197.

I love you!
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:20 am

I think I completely just missed your jump from talking about luring people in to helping the poor. The main topic is if we should have things to attract people. Some people may try to take advantage of the Starbucks, plasma TV, etc. but end up converting due to them hearing the word. When they go in to watch TV and sip their coffee, they can't help but hear church going on right next to them. Eventually, some of it will get in their head and they will start coming to the church for God; not coffee or TV.


This isn't just Christianity in play here. By fusing business methods and church together, they can increase their numbers like mad.


I think that if they had a reduced price on the coffee, or even had it free, it would benefit them much more. Who doesn't want free Starbucks? It would be a major toll on the profits of the church, but if they church is big and has plenty of money, then why not? Lure people in with free/reduced price coffee and have them hear the gospel as payment.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:25 pm

47.5 wrote:
I think I completely just missed your jump from talking about luring people in to helping the poor. The main topic is if we should have things to attract people. Some people may try to take advantage of the Starbucks, plasma TV, etc. but end up converting due to them hearing the word. When they go in to watch TV and sip their coffee, they can't help but hear church going on right next to them. Eventually, some of it will get in their head and they will start coming to the church for God; not coffee or TV.
I think that if they had a reduced price on the coffee, or even had it free, it would benefit them much more. Who doesn't want free Starbucks? It would be a major toll on the profits of the church, but if they church is big and has plenty of money, then why not? Lure people in with free/reduced price coffee and have them hear the gospel as payment.



You talk about "hearing the Gospel".
The GOSPEL is helping the poor, loving your neighbor, etc.
It's about action.
That's where the jump was.
"Luring" someone in is so ridiculous.
Q:Into where?
A:Into the church building
Q:Why?
A:To hear the Gospel.
Q:You're talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
A:Yes
Q:That's the one about loving your neighbor and helping the poor and sick?
A:That's the one.
Q:And about not being greedy and about suffering with those who are suffering?
A:That's the one, yes.
Q:And you want to "lure" those people into a building where there is a corporate giant, and give them coffee?
A:Um, yes.
Q:Shouldn't we be bringing the Gospel (action) to THEM, rather than relying on Starbucks, Wal-Mart, etc. to do that FOR us? Or do you think that the Gospel is just all on paper, and is a bunch of words and advice for telling us what NOT to do?
A:Let's go to that soup line today. Or mow an old person's lawn.
You've convinced me.

Quote :
This isn't just Christianity in play here. By fusing business methods and church together, they can increase their numbers like mad.

Remember when Jesus got angry at the temple?
He was angry about having vendors in His Church, making a buck
and being greedy.
I don't believe business and The Church should be mixed in that way.

Starbucks is everything we should be against in society.

Watching TV and going to church, and "oh by the way Jesus has a few things to say" is rather disgusting, if you ask me.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:10 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:

You talk about "hearing the Gospel".
The GOSPEL is helping the poor, loving your neighbor, etc.
It's about action.
You accept Jesus mentally and spiritually into your heart. Acting out what Jesus wants is through action. If someone mows your lawn, you are helped; if someone preaches the gospel to you, you are saved.
BeMyIcon wrote:
"Luring" someone in is so ridiculous.
I used a bad word for it. "Luring" has a bad connotation but it was the best word I could think of at that moment. I mean that we need to bring people in somehow but while they're in, we can preach to them. Same idea as luring, but "lure" is usually used in a bad way (fish die after being lured...)
BeMyIcon wrote:

Q:And you want to "lure" those people into a building where there is a corporate giant, and give them coffee?
A:Um, yes.
Q:Shouldn't we be bringing the Gospel (action) to THEM, rather than relying on Starbucks, Wal-Mart, etc. to do that FOR us? Or do you think that the Gospel is just all on paper, and is a bunch of words and advice for telling us what NOT to do?
Who says you can't do both? You can go out and talk to people and do things for them but you can also have a coffee shop in your church.

My church has a little area for free breakfast. It includes doughnuts, coffee, hot chocolate, etc. This is basically the Starbucks thing on a much smaller scale. There is always one homeless bum whom I see every time I go in there. He may have gone in once to get the free food but while eating, heard church going on and decided to sit and watch. After a while, it grew on him and he stopped going in just for the food but also for the sermon. This may not be true, but it is completely plausible.

BeMyIcon wrote:

Remember when Jesus got angry at the temple?
He was angry about having vendors in His Church, making a buck
and being greedy.
I don't believe business and The Church should be mixed in that way.

Starbucks is everything we should be against in society.

Watching TV and going to church, and "oh by the way Jesus has a few things to say" is rather disgusting, if you ask me.

I never said the church would be profiting from this. In fact, I actually said they would lose money. This also goes along the guidelines of what I said above. The members of the church could donate some money or time to run the shop and do it for free just as my church serves a small breakfast for free. By them serving for free, this is exactly what you said for preaching with actions. They donate free coffee to anyone who wants it.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:35 pm

[quote="47.5"]
BeMyIcon wrote:

If someone mows your lawn, you are helped; if someone preaches the gospel to you, you are saved.

Wrong.
If you mow someone's lawn, you ARE spreading the Gospel, whether you realize it or not.
If someone preaches the Gospel to you, you are not "saved".
You have only heard someone preaching to you.
I could sit in a church for 50 years listening but not believing.


Quote :
I mean that we need to bring people in somehow but while they're in, we can preach to them.

Why are you so concerned with "preaching to people"?
Who CARES if they're "saved" or not?
That's not our job.
Our job is to reach out to them and help them, doing it in the name of Jesus.
How they choose to lead their lives is not our concern, and in fact, God tells us NOT to be concerned with that.
It's called judging.


Quote :
Who says you can't do both? You can go out and talk to people and do things for them but you can also have a coffee shop in your church.

You CAN do both.
I never said you couldn't.
I was referring to Starbucks itself, not the idea of having coffee.

Quote :
My church has a little area for free breakfast. It includes doughnuts, coffee, hot chocolate, etc. This is basically the Starbucks thing on a much smaller scale.

No, it's not.
Starbucks is a money-making machine, and free breakfast is free breakfast.


Quote :
There is always one homeless bum whom I see every time I go in there. He may have gone in once to get the free food but while eating, heard church going on and decided to sit and watch. After a while, it grew on him and he stopped going in just for the food but also for the sermon. This may not be true, but it is completely plausible.

Of course it's plausible.
And again, I have no problem with free food.
In fact, it's an awesome idea.


Quote :
The members of the church could donate some money or time to run the shop and do it for free just as my church serves a small breakfast for free. By them serving for free, this is exactly what you said for preaching with actions. They donate free coffee to anyone who wants it.


What we're actually disagreeing about, I think, is what the Gospel IS
and how important us going around and "saving" people is.

I think we get too hung up on "saving" people, and that's my point.
Again, someone gets "saved". (I really hate using that word)
So what?
I know plenty of people who are saved who sit in constant judgment of those who are not.
Don't try and tell me that even though Mother Theresa probably never used the word "saved", that she isn't is heaven, and that God wasn't very pleased with her life.
She helped the poor and needy on such a massive level, and she did it all in the name of Jesus.
THAT'S the mark of a Christian, not knowing Scripture and studying theology.

So anyway, I feel that our basic disagreement is on how we interpret the New Testament, and what its point was.
I feel it's about loving your neighbor and giving them the shirt off your back.
I DON'T feel it's about getting as many people as we can into a nice, successful, fancy church.

In fact, I believe that if Jesus were to come back today, he probably would not enter into any of our churches. Maybe.
But I feel his time would be spent hanging out with sinners and being a good friend to them and showing them Love.
He might be in a bar having a beer with a man who beats his wife, telling him that He loves him.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:20 am

I don't completely understand why "saved" sounds so bad to you, but alright.

There are two ways to approach the problem of having people know Jesus. One, you can serve them and help them and preach through actions (what you're saying). And the second is through telling them about Jesus himself (I guess this is what I was representing earlier). Both are acceptable ways. Using both at once is a great way. Churches sometimes offer "1" where the members can work together for a common cause (building a house, helping a homeless shelter, etc.) or the church itself can use "2" to get people by handing out pamphlets or going door-to-door.

I think that the idea of giving away coffee would be using "1" (members of the church offering their time to work the shop and give money to make the coffee) and "2" (having it running during the church service so while they sip their coffee, they listen to the sermon). I think what you're misunderstanding in what I'm saying is that this Starbucks may not be used just as a money making device but as a way to serve the equivalent of a free breakfast. The Starbucks could charge a little bit to make sure the church doesn't run out of money and have to shut down, but they won't make enough money to make a profit.


BeMyIcon wrote:
I think we get too hung up on "saving" people, and that's my point.
Again, someone gets "saved". (I really hate using that word)
So what?
I know plenty of people who are saved who sit in constant judgment of those who are not.
Don't try and tell me that even though Mother Theresa probably never used the word "saved", that she isn't is heaven, and that God wasn't very pleased with her life.
She helped the poor and needy on such a massive level, and she did it all in the name of Jesus.
THAT'S the mark of a Christian, not knowing Scripture and studying theology.
BeMyIcon wrote:
In fact, I believe that if Jesus were to come back today, he probably would not enter into any of our churches. Maybe.
But I feel his time would be spent hanging out with sinners and being a good friend to them and showing them Love.
He might be in a bar having a beer with a man who beats his wife, telling him that He loves him.
These two parts of your post seem extremely off-topic and I keep wondering how/why you're making these jumps.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:42 am

47.5 wrote:
I don't completely understand why "saved" sounds so bad to you, but alright.

I said this earlier:
Who CARES if they're "saved" or not?
That's not our job.
Our job is to reach out to them and help them, doing it in the name of Jesus.
How they choose to lead their lives is not our concern, and in fact, God tells us NOT to be concerned with that.
It's called judging.




I agree with the concept of most of what you've said, just not Starbucks,
and especially not INSIDE the church.
I believe it should be a Holy Place of worship, not a "hang-out".
It's corporate America meets The Church, and those don't go together.
Starbucks is rich.
We're not supposed to be rich.
Starbucks represents greed and things that only rich people can afford.
By rich, I also am referring to America, which is why I think we're basically screwed as a country in the eyes of God.


If you take the Bible literally - as most evangelicals do - then you also must take it literally when Jesus said it's harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, right?
Or is that part not meant literally?
And if it's not, then how does one decide which parts to take literally and which to take figuratively? Is it up to the individual?

The part where you're saying I sound off-topic is very relevant and not off-topic whatsoever:
You and phe seem to both be very concerned with "getting people into church", and I'm not.
Aren't we supposed to be trying to model our lives after Jesus?
Yes.
Well, I don't believe He would be in a church like that.
I believe He felt a church was a very Holy Place as well, which is why he got so angry when there were vendors inside His Father's House.
I also believe that when He wasn't in church, he was hanging out with sinners, and I feel that needs to be our focus as Christians.

You don't have to agree, and I don't expect you to.
I only want to state my point of view, and to state it clearly so as to avoid confusion in what I'm saying.
I absolutely don't want to "argue" about this, I only want to state my opinion, and try my best to be as clear as possible.
If I need to clarify further, of course I will.
Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:48 am

BeMyIcon wrote:

And if it's not, then how does one decide which parts to take literally and which to take figuratively? Is it up to the individual?
You're not one of those Catholics who believes all of Revelation was symbolic... right?


Last edited by 47.5 on Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : the system clock was waaaaaay off. I set it to what it should be but the time isn't changing on the forum. Might take effect in a few minutes/hours.)
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:57 am

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:

And if it's not, then how does one decide which parts to take literally and which to take figuratively? Is it up to the individual?
You're not one of those Catholics who believes all of Revelation was symbolic... right?


I know almost nothing about the Book of Revelation,
and I'm not that interested in it, LOL.
Maybe someday.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:11 am

BeMyIcon wrote:

I know almost nothing about the Book of Revelation,
and I'm not that interested in it, LOL.
Maybe someday.
Dude it's like the coolest thing ever. Just don't believe what most Catholics believe (the symbolic viewpoint). For some reason most Catholics say that it is just poetic way of saying what happened with the Romans and the troubles the early Christians had.

It says you are blessed if you read and remember it. It is the only book of the Bible that promises a blessing (plus it's awesome).
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:19 am

47.5 wrote:

Just don't believe what most Catholics believe (the symbolic viewpoint). For some reason most Catholics say that it is just poetic way of saying what happened with the Romans and the troubles the early Christians had.



I'll believe whatever the Catholic Church tells me to believe.
affraid


I'm sure you'll LOVE that one.
lol!


There really CAN'T be a "most Catholics" thing.
Either a Catholic is going by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, or they're not.
It's unified like that in its teaching.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:30 am

BeMyIcon wrote:

I'll believe whatever the Catholic Church tells me to believe.
affraid


I'm sure you'll LOVE that one.
lol!


There really CAN'T be a "most Catholics" thing.
Either a Catholic is going by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, or they're not.
It's unified like that in its teaching.
Okay I wasn't sure if all Catholics believed it so instead of sounding stupid by saying "all" and being caught making a generalization I didn't have the authority to make, I thought I would be safer by saying "most". Alas you have foiled my master plan again (again said like "pain").

And you just believe whatever they say without questioning it? You are supposed to read your Bible and form your beliefs off of how you interpret it (there is pretty much only one way to interpret it); not listen to everyone else. If you listen to others and not use your own judgement, you end up with things like purgatory and thinking Revelation is symbolic.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:36 am

47.5 wrote:

Okay I wasn't sure if all Catholics believed it so instead of sounding stupid by saying "all" and being caught making a generalization I didn't have the authority to make, I thought I would be safer by saying "most". Alas you have foiled my master plan again (again said like "pain").

LOL.
You're pretty smart, I'll say that, 47.5.

Quote :
And you just believe whatever they say without questioning it?

For the most part, yes.
I have issues with believing Mary was sinless, but it certainly doesn't keep me from being Catholic.
I hope that someday that makes sense to me, though.

Quote :
You are supposed to read your Bible and form your beliefs off of how you interpret it (there is pretty much only one way to interpret it); not listen to everyone else.

So each person is supposed to interpret it his or her own way?
Yet there's only ONE way to interpret it?
Explain.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:45 am

BeMyIcon wrote:

So each person is supposed to interpret it his or her own way?
Yet there's only ONE way to interpret it?
Explain.
I mean that if you look straight at the Bible all you get back is the Bible. If you leave it up to other people they insert what they want over time. It may be small. It may be misunderstandings, but once it is decided, no one goes back to check and make sure it is still correct. Have you ever played the children's game "telephone"? It is where about 15 kids sit in a circle and one makes a secret message and whispers it to the person next to them. They whisper it to the next, and so on. Eventually, it gets back to the first kid and he tells what the first message was and what he got. The message is completely different because since each kid whispered, there was much room for mistake. A few slip-ups and the whole message is different. If each child checked with the first child on what the beginning message was before passing it on, there would be no error. Since each one never checks back to hear the first message, it just gets more and more twisted. This is like the Catholic church; everyone relies on the person in front of them to pass on the message without checking for themselves whether or not it is accurate. Eventually, just as the children ended with a jumbled mass of meaningless words, the Catholic church ends up with a jumbled mass of meaningless rules. Sorry if this didn't make sense, I'm not the best at explaining things.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:05 am

Dude, you've sort of lost me.

Did the Church give us the Bible, or did the Bible give us the Church?
I think that's probably the question, isn't it?

Without The Church telling me HOW to read Scripture, I become the authority on it, and that's totally ridiculous.

Jesus loves us.
Be kind to your neighbor.
Love sinners.

Smile


Gotta go, bud.
If you want to pick this up again, let me know....I have to post on LK.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:14 am

you've never played telephone. seriously?


and you have it the other way around. The Bible teaches the church how to exist. When you have the church in authority over the Bible, then you mess things up and lose sight of what is really important due to the fact that people can't have power over anything without corruption.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:17 am

No, I understood the telephone thing.

But the Church came WAY before the Bible, and the Church decided what books to put into it based on its tradition.

Didn't I start a thread on that a couple months ago?
I THOUGHT I did.
Hm.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:24 am

BeMyIcon wrote:
No, I understood the telephone thing.

But the Church came WAY before the Bible, and the Church decided what books to put into it based on its tradition.

Didn't I start a thread on that a couple months ago?
I THOUGHT I did.
Hm.
whoa what are you talking about? God told man what to do then he did it. Man didn't randomly start forming churches and such. The Bible wasn't organized, but it was still there.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:42 am

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
No, I understood the telephone thing.

But the Church came WAY before the Bible, and the Church decided what books to put into it based on its tradition.

Didn't I start a thread on that a couple months ago?
I THOUGHT I did.
Hm.
whoa what are you talking about? God told man what to do then he did it. Man didn't randomly start forming churches and such. The Bible wasn't organized, but it was still there.



You might want to check with your pastor on this one.
The Church came centuries before the Bible, and the Church (the Catholic Church) decided which books should go in there, depending on if it was in line with its teachings or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:56 am

I'm talking about the Bible as in God's word. I don't mean the organized group of books.

The church was put together after the word of God was given (which I refer to as the Bible). They didn't just build churches for some god they didn't know about yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:02 am

47.5 wrote:
I'm talking about the Bible as in God's word. I don't mean the organized group of books.

The church was put together after the word of God was given (which I refer to as the Bible). They didn't just build churches for some god they didn't know about yet.



Right, but there were countless books ABOUT God that could have been in the Bible today.
The Catholic Church sifted through all the "candidates" and decided which ones would go in, based on its teachings.
Some were discarded, some were kept.
It's "God's Word" because the Church DECIDED it was God's Word.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:06 am

What point are you trying to make here? It sounds to me like you're putting down Catholics and saying they, even though they didn't have the authority, added and subtracted from God's Word as we are told not to in Revelation.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:12 am

47.5 wrote:
What point are you trying to make here? It sounds to me like you're putting down Catholics and saying they, even though they didn't have the authority, added and subtracted from God's Word as we are told not to in Revelation.



No clue what you're talking about.

What I'm saying is that the Catholic Church put together the Bible.
I doubt if your pastor is going to disagree with that.
And they put it together, adding books they felt "jived" with their teachings,
and discarding books they felt did not go along with it.
And I doubt if your pastor is going to disagree with that, too.
The Revelation thing is over my head, but I don't think it matters.



Hey!
I thought I was supposed to be leaving this board and posting on the other one like an hour ago!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:06 pm

You're talking about the book, I'm talking about the Word. The book the Bible wasn't assembled until the Catholic church did it. The Word was handed from God to man. After the Word was given to man, he established an organized union. The organized union (the church) then organized the Word into the Bible.
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:18 pm

47.5 wrote:
You're talking about the book, I'm talking about the Word. The book the Bible wasn't assembled until the Catholic church did it. The Word was handed from God to man. After the Word was given to man, he established an organized union. The organized union (the church) then organized the Word into the Bible.



I'm not sure I'm understanding you.


I think you're saying that somehow "The Word" is its own entity, and separate from the book we call the Bible.
Am I correct?
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PostSubject: Re: Starbucks Inside a Church   Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:07 pm

yeah kinda. God told them what to do (what I count as the Word) and they did it (the church). The Bible, written and organized or not, was still within them before the Bible was put on paper/stone. Therefore, the early Hebrew tribe followed what God said (basically a beginning form of the Bible) and they connected because of it.
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