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PostSubject: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:00 am

LOL.


Kirsten is starting school this year, and I was thinking about MY schooling.



Think about how we "pledged allegiance" to the FLAG.
LOL.

She's enrolled in the Catholic school system, so I'm pretty sure I'm safe.
But I was wondering what I would do as a parent if the "Pledge of Allegiance"
were in her school.

I'll get more into it if necessary, but I'd like to see a couple more reactions first.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:41 am

You don't like the Pledge of Allegiance?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:24 pm

47.5 wrote:
You don't like the Pledge of Allegiance?


I don't like pledging allegiance to ANYTHING other than God.
Especially the idea of it being "indivisible".
We KNOW God's not going to do awful things,
but we don't know that about our country; in fact, we know just the opposite.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:09 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
I don't like pledging allegiance to ANYTHING other than God.
Especially the idea of it being "indivisible".
We KNOW God's not going to do awful things,
but we don't know that about our country; in fact, we know just the opposite.
Yeah I don't agree with the idea of being forced to believe or pledge yourself to but there's nothing we can do unfortunately.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:14 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
I don't like pledging allegiance to ANYTHING other than God.
Especially the idea of it being "indivisible".
We KNOW God's not going to do awful things,
but we don't know that about our country; in fact, we know just the opposite.
Yeah I don't agree with the idea of being forced to believe or pledge yourself to but there's nothing we can do unfortunately.


We can: NOT say it, LOL.
Or we can send our kids to private schools.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:17 pm

I go to a private school. They used to make us say it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:21 am

47.5 wrote:
I go to a private school. They used to make us say it.


What do you think they would have done
if you would have refused to say it?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:58 am

BeMyIcon wrote:

What do you think they would have done
if you would have refused to say it?
We probably would've gotten told to do it and if we kept disobeying we would probably get detention. Regardless of schooling, you still are forced to pledge allegiance to the flag.


edit: this is going in regular debate
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:32 pm

Didn't they already take it out of schools? Or did they just take out the "under God" part to be politically correct?

I don't see the harm in it. You are here for a reason in this country. If you aren't going to stand for the country you are in and support it... then why are you here????
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:33 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
Didn't they already take it out of schools? Or did they just take out the "under God" part to be politically correct?

I don't see the harm in it. You are here for a reason in this country. If you aren't going to stand for the country you are in and support it... then why are you here????


It depends on what you mean by "stand for the country you are in and support it".
And that's the problem with The Pledge, too.
What does that MEAN?
It's unclear.
How do I give my "allegiance"?
I'm not pledging ANYthing to anybody unless I know EXACTLY
what I'm getting myself into.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:49 pm

Not really sure what topic BMI is going into, but I would have to say that pledging your allegiance to anything should be a choice. They only make children do this, so is this to teach them the habit of pledging allegiance or something?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:36 pm

47.5 wrote:
Not really sure what topic BMI is going into,

?
We say, "I Pledge ALLEGIANCE".
What does that even MEAN?
I think that's the whole point.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:41 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
47.5 wrote:
Not really sure what topic BMI is going into,

?
We say, "I Pledge ALLEGIANCE".
What does that even MEAN?
I think that's the whole point.
to pledge allegiance is to pledge your submission. In this case we are submitting ourselves to the country and its will. To pledge allegiance the proper way would mean that we completely devote ourselves to the authority we are pledging to and do not question its motives, but follow through with its every command.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:51 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
47.5 wrote:
Not really sure what topic BMI is going into,

?
We say, "I Pledge ALLEGIANCE".
What does that even MEAN?
I think that's the whole point.
to pledge allegiance is to pledge your submission. In this case we are submitting ourselves to the country and its will. To pledge allegiance the proper way would mean that we completely devote ourselves to the authority we are pledging to and do not question its motives, but follow through with its every command.



LOL.
Kirsten will never be allowed to say this as long as she's under my watch!
The country's "will"?
Does that mean the will of whoever the current president is?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:02 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
LOL.
Kirsten will never be allowed to say this as long as she's under my watch!
The country's "will"?
Does that mean the will of whoever the current president is?
Under the will of what the country tells you to do; not necessarily the president. Like they would want you to join the army and fight for the country or something like that. It's not like the president will say "everyone take a shit on the floor" and everyone has to do it (or at least I hope not).
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:16 pm

47.5 wrote:
Under the will of what the country tells you to do; not necessarily the president. Like they would want you to join the army and fight for the country or something like that.


The country?
They?

I'm not trying to be difficult, honestly.
But seriously, who?

The Pledge is very vague and creepy, if you ask me.

And nobody can MAKE me kill "for our country". (LOL, whatever THAT means!)
I'll go to jail before I do that.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:53 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
The country?
They?.
The country. The organized authority over us all. The government. The executive, legislative, and judicial branches.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:59 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
The country?
They?.
The country. The organized authority over us all. The government. The executive, legislative, and judicial branches.


OK, so you're talking about the government.
So using your words, when we pledge "allegiance" to our country,
we're pledging our will and submission to our government.

LOL.

How nuts is that?
Scary!
Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:30 am

BeMyIcon wrote:


OK, so you're talking about the government.
So using your words, when we pledge "allegiance" to our country,
we're pledging our will and submission to our government.

LOL.

How nuts is that?
Scary!
Smile
Yeah but to me it doesn't matter who we're pledging allegiance to. The point I am trying to make is that it is wrong to force anyone for pledge allegiance to anyone/thing. We have a choice (what the country was founded on anyway) and we should be able to choose if we want to stand behind something or not.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:31 am

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:


OK, so you're talking about the government.
So using your words, when we pledge "allegiance" to our country,
we're pledging our will and submission to our government.

LOL.

How nuts is that?
Scary!
Smile
Yeah but to me it doesn't matter who we're pledging allegiance to. The point I am trying to make is that it is wrong to force anyone for pledge allegiance to anyone/thing. We have a choice (what the country was founded on anyway) and we should be able to choose if we want to stand behind something or not.


Agreed.
100%
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:35 am

Then this debate sucks. We need to find something we differ on.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:40 am

47.5 wrote:
Then this debate sucks. We need to find something we differ on.


Or POP*ICON can respond.


She seemed to disagree.
What a sissy.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:35 pm

I do disagree. (and I'm not a sissy) We wouldn't BE a country if we didn't pledge allegiance to it, same as any other country... they all do it! All it means is that you will fight for what we made this country to be about... free will. If you want to be here you should be willing to fight for that freedom and that freedom includes being able to disagree with what the country wants to do, but then disagree!! Don't complain about it and do nothing... you love your country and what it stands for then stand for it! Get up! we put people in office... it would be ridiculous to have voting and then go back and say "well that was fun, but I don't really want to follow what they say..." go someplace else then.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:49 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
I do disagree. (and I'm not a sissy) We wouldn't BE a country if we didn't pledge allegiance to it, same as any other country... they all do it!

Well, it was written in 1892, according to Wikipedia,
and it seems our country existed long before that.
And who cares what OTHER countries are doing?
That shouldn't matter at all.



Quote :
All it means is that you will fight for what we made this country to be about... free will.


And I will not do that.
That's my point.

Quote :
If you want to be here you should be willing to fight for that freedom

So you're saying that if I want to be here, I need to support war and violence?
And that everybody who does not support wars and is non-violent shouldn't be allowed to live in the U.S?


Quote :
and that freedom includes being able to disagree with what the country wants to do, but then disagree!!

Right.
And I disagree with war.
I believe I have that right.

Quote :
you love your country and what it stands for then stand for it!

What does our country "stand for"?
I'm not talking about what we think it SHOULD stand for,
I'm talking about what we actually DO and DON'T DO.
We can SAY we stand for something all we want,
but if your actions show something else, well then, a spade is a spade.

Quote :
we put people in office... it would be ridiculous to have voting and then go back and say "well that was fun, but I don't really want to follow what they say..."

No, the people who voted for George Bush put him in office.
Not me.
And certainly not the majority of black people and Muslims.


Quote :
go someplace else then.

So when women didn't have the right to vote, should someone have said
the same thing to YOU?
What about when slavery was legal?
That's what our country "stood for", right?
If every time a person doesn't agree with a policy,
should that person then be told to leave?
THAT doesn't sound like a democracy, and certainly not something
"worth fighting for".
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:51 pm

The part that we have gotten away from is most people don't want to pledge allegiance to anything (regardless if it is this nation or not), and or do anything. They want others to do it. War is imminent. As long as there is sin there will be war. No one is upholding the important part to the Pledge : "one nation under God." With Him is where we should have our allegiance. So I vote and I show my support for the people that help protect me from those who want to surpress me into their beliefs.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:33 pm

Alright first, this:

POP*ICON wrote:
All it means is that you will fight for what we made this country to be about... free will.
Is kind of a self contradicting sentence. If we pledge ourselves to do whatever the country wants, doesn't that mean we're giving up our free will in the process? We give up our free will to do things for a country that will in return give us free will?...
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:14 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
The part that we have gotten away from is most people don't want to pledge allegiance to anything (regardless if it is this nation or not),and or do anything. They want others to do it.

Again with the "most people" angle?
How could you possibly know that?

Quote :
As long as there is sin there will be war.

I'd probably agree with that.
But does that mean we have to be a part of it?
As long as there is sin, people will be killing babies.
Does that mean we should join them?
Because that's what we're doing in war; killing babies.
You think only military people are dying?


Quote :
"one nation under God." With Him is where we should have our allegiance.

I agree, our allegiance should be with God.
But one of the points I'm making is that that allegiance to God
has NOTHING to do with our country, and not just because it's the U.S.
The interests of our government are not those of God.
So the part of the Pledge that you say is important is void.

Quote :
from those who want to surpress me into their beliefs.


Who are those people?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:40 pm

With war there are sacrifices, for everyone. If you think that saying the Pledge means only having to give yourself into submission for violence you are confused. Go somewhere else. Every country has some sort of Pledge to it and every country would expect that if you like the place you live in, you will fight for it to stay the same. You live in a certain area because you like SOME of the things there. In this world there will never be an area where you are in agreement with EVERYTHING that goes on. That will be heaven.

So while we are here we are to teach what we believe and spread The Word. That is our purpose. And it is up to us to put people in government that stand for the interests of God. If those people aren't elected yet it is because God's message has not reached enough to make believers the majority.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:51 pm

in the pledge, we are pledging that we stand for what america stands for. If we dont say it, we are standing for what america stands for. Get it? thats why america is so great.

pledging isnt like bowing down to george bush and submitting yourself to the nation AT ALL... you guys literally sound retarded when you say submitting to america. It is just a recognition of you being in allegiance with the country and paying your respect to it and the soldiers etc. Its kind of a weird way of going about this (well, it is like 400 years old) but it is what it is
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PostSubject: Re: The Pledge of Allegiance   Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:22 pm

phe wrote:
in the pledge, we are pledging that we stand for what america stands for. If we dont say it, we are standing for what america stands for. Get it?


Well said.
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