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 Fate? Free Will?

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47.5

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PostSubject: Fate? Free Will?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:39 am

Are we completely controlled by God? Does God not control a bit in our lives? Could God controlling us actually affect who gets saved (election)? Is everyone who gets saved saved by us or were they led to God by the Holy Spirit?
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PostSubject: Re: Fate? Free Will?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:04 am

47.5 wrote:
Are we completely controlled by God? Does God not control a bit in our lives? Could God controlling us actually affect who gets saved (election)? Is everyone who gets saved saved by us or were they led to God by the Holy Spirit?


Of course God doesn't control us.
Who here is going to say THAT?
LOL.

And the election thing: I still have no idea.


Hopefully somebody else can add better stuff than I just did!

king
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47.5

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PostSubject: Re: Fate? Free Will?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:38 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
Of course God doesn't control us.
Who here is going to say THAT?
LOL.
Surprisingly enough, some people do.


Quote :

And the election thing: I still have no idea.
This is where the idea of fate and free will collide. If we have a choice and everything we do is not influenced by God, just seen before we do it, then why do we have no choice in being saved? That is a major choice and it isn't ours.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate? Free Will?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:38 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
Of course God doesn't control us.
Who here is going to say THAT?
LOL.
Surprisingly enough, some people do.


Quote :

And the election thing: I still have no idea.
This is where the idea of fate and free will collide. If we have a choice and everything we do is not influenced by God, just seen before we do it, then why do we have no choice in being saved? That is a major choice and it isn't ours.


Well, I've heard of the "election" perspective before, a little,
and then a little more in that other thread Philip started.
I'll ask the deacon about this one too, tomorrow,
and then I'll let you know how I feel about it.
LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate? Free Will?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:55 pm

well... this has been my most recent struggle: election

im gonna be honest i think its really messed up and im kind of mad at god for doing it. Because, no matt how you look at it, its God's fault we go to hell. He KNEW we were going to sin and some were going to go to hell (FOR ETERNITY) and some werent, but he created us anyway and CHOSE who he wanted... its gonna take a lot for me to get over this...

anybody got any advice?
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PostSubject: Re: Fate? Free Will?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:10 pm

phe wrote:
well... this has been my most recent struggle: election

im gonna be honest i think its really messed up and im kind of mad at god for doing it. Because, no matt how you look at it, its God's fault we go to hell. He KNEW we were going to sin and some were going to go to hell (FOR ETERNITY) and some werent, but he created us anyway and CHOSE who he wanted... its gonna take a lot for me to get over this...

anybody got any advice?
The weird thing to me is that the whole reason God gives us this choice of choosing Him or death is because if we were forced, then our praise means nothing. If we choose on our own, then everything is just for God's glory. The problem I have is that if we don't have a choice in the matter, then what was the point of Jesus? If we have no say-so in us being saved or not, then why have Jesus killed? Jesus was crucified to give us a choice between sin and God.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate? Free Will?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:56 pm

It seems that predestination is certainly a part of all Christian teachings,
but it gets really complicated.
I pasted only part of what I read about it, the part that I felt to be
the most important:

----------------------------------------------------------------

"Catholics believe that God predestines no one to hell. Scripture says God loves the world (John 3:16); He desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) and that He has no pleasure on the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). The belief that God predestines no one to evil has been the constant teaching of the Catholic Church."

We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.

----Council of Orange (529 AD)



anathema =
Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication : minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication ; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence ; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't fully understand the whole "anathema" thing, and I only copied and pasted PART of the "definition", but it seems to be a really bad thing.
LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate? Free Will?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:06 am

"For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men."
---Titus 2:11

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
---1 Corinthians 15:22
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