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PostSubject: The War   Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:46 am

This war should never have been started.
Killing Taliban members and Iraqis (or whomever) is as bad as killing babies.


If you disagree, explain how it's different.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:58 pm

I've been thinking about this for awhile and not sure how to put my thoughts out here clearly on it. I will try...

I believe that the war was started for an original good cause of stopping those who wanted to end what we have here. I also believe that it has gone awry since then. But to not support those troops that have been and are there (I believe) is not right.

To leave now without finishing what we started would be wrong and will mean that those who have died, died in vain.

We can not live in a bubble. We can't sit comfortably in our homes and think that anothers problems are just that, their problems. Everyone affects everyone else. To think we can sit quietly by and just live our lives is a little absurd to me.

Of course I feel and understand the pain of having a son or daughter killed over there or having to be a part of that situation but... they signed up for that. If you joined the army for just the free stuff then you signed up for the wrong reasons. Your position is to serve and protect. All aspects of the job should have been evaluated. You were not forced to join. To not support them in that decision will cause them to fail.

I originally signed up for the Air Force. I backed out because I did not feel that that was where I could do the most good for God. We are all made for reasons, we all have purpose in this life and direction. There are definetely stronger people out there than I who feel that they can be a part of it and go through those hard times. It would have broken me and I know that and God knows that. He led me down a different path. But for those He led down the path to joining, we should be supportive of.

Go..........
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:25 pm

POP*ICON wrote:

Go..........


Well, I'd like you to explain how killing Taliban members is different
than killing babies.

That was the main point of the thread.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:41 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
Well, I'd like you to explain how killing Taliban members is different
than killing babies.

That was the main point of the thread.
...eh...babies are ethically way worse to kill than Taliban members in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:42 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
Well, I'd like you to explain how killing Taliban members is different
than killing babies.

That was the main point of the thread.
...eh...babies are ethically way worse to kill than Taliban members in my opinion.



Why?
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:48 pm

So you think that God cares more about a baby (how old?)
than a Taliban member?
The baby's life is more precious to Him?
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:51 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
So you think that God cares more about a baby (how old?)
than a Taliban member?
The baby's life is more precious to Him?
don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that a Taliban member is going out to kill people while a baby doesn't even know right from wrong yet. God doesn't love one more than the other, but for the benefit of us here on earth, killing a taliban member would be much more beneficial and at least productive.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:57 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
So you think that God cares more about a baby (how old?)
than a Taliban member?
The baby's life is more precious to Him?
don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that a Taliban member is going out to kill people while a baby doesn't even know right from wrong yet. God doesn't love one more than the other, but for the benefit of us here on earth, killing a taliban member would be much more beneficial and at least productive.


I'm not putting words in your mouth.
You brought up "ethics", and I'm trying to put God's perspective in this debate.

They were all three questions, not statements.

Beneficial for whom?
The U.S.?
What about the Taliban member's mother or father?
Would the murder of their son be "productive"?

Do you think that "Thou shalt not kill" has clauses?
What about "Love your enemies"?
Does THAT have clauses?
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:02 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
I'm not putting words in your mouth.
You brought up "ethics", and I'm trying to put God's perspective in this debate.

They were all three questions, not statements.

Beneficial for whom?
The U.S.?
What about the Taliban member's mother or father?
Would the murder of their son be "productive"?

Do you think that "Thou shalt not kill" has clauses?
What about "Love your enemies"?
Does THAT have clauses?
When the enemy wants to kill you no matter what and put an end to unbelievers, doesn't that basically mean that your are defending your faith but in an offensive way?

Plus, by bringing up a point like "Thou shalt not kill" (which actually is murder, a completely different subject), you are setting yourself up for the idea that you wouldn't have wanted Hitler and his army dead.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:11 pm

47.5 wrote:
When the enemy wants to kill you no matter what and put an end to unbelievers, doesn't that basically mean that your are defending your faith but in an offensive way?

Well, when Simon slashed off the ear of that guard,
Jesus got PISSED and even called him "Satan", didn't He?
LOL.
Pretty extreme!

And if our faith is based on gentleness and love, then I'd say NO,
that's not "defending" our faith...in fact, just the opposite.

Quote :
you are setting yourself up for the idea that you wouldn't have wanted Hitler and his army dead.


What I WANT has nothing to do with what's RIGHT and HOLY.
I want to punch people sometimes.
I wanted to hurt the DFCS people when they took Kirsten away.
But who cares what I want?
Let God handle that shit.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:18 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
Well, when Simon slashed off the ear of that guard,
Jesus got PISSED and even called him "Satan", didn't He?
LOL.
Pretty extreme!
...what?

Quote :

And if our faith is based on gentleness and love, then I'd say NO,
that's not "defending" our faith...in fact, just the opposite.
What I WANT has nothing to do with what's RIGHT and HOLY.
I want to punch people sometimes.
I wanted to hurt the DFCS people when they took Kirsten away.
But who cares what I want?
Let God handle that shit.
would you have found it better if we had not won the war (WWII, that is)? If we have not fought because we didn't want to kill?
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:32 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
Well, when Simon slashed off the ear of that guard,
Jesus got PISSED and even called him "Satan", didn't He?
LOL.
Pretty extreme!
...what?

Oops.
Him calling Simon "Satan" was a different time.
LOL.

But there's this:
Luke 22:47-54
47 And while He was still speaking, behold, a multitude; and he who was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them and drew near to Jesus to kiss Him.

48 But Jesus said to him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

49 When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”

50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.” And He touched his ear and healed him.


Quote :

would you have found it better if we had not won the war (WWII, that is)? If we have not fought because we didn't want to kill?

By "better", do you mean "more righteous"?
If you do, then my answer is Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:26 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
By "better", do you mean "more righteous"?
If you do, then my answer is Yes.
Permitting the extermination of every Jew would be more righteous to you?
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:41 pm

I dont know if u KNOW christopher is right or not... but he he is and theres no escaping that


I dont know how you can completely ignore Thou shall not kill, love your enemy, jesus praying for his killers, etc. If somebody tells you to walk a mile, walk two, if somebody slaps you in the face, turn the other cheek. You [conner] seem to have this idealistic view of THE GOVERNMENT that it is on some sort of the same level as god and rules change because, its THE GOVERNMENT, and its AMERICA.


the answer (i think its pretty obvious) is that the sin would be equal. I think if u had to choose (which u wouldnt) anybody would choose the taliban guy but in god's eyes its no different....
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:13 pm

phe wrote:
I dont know if u KNOW christopher is right or not... but he he is and theres no escaping that


I dont know how you can completely ignore Thou shall not kill, love your enemy, jesus praying for his killers, etc. If somebody tells you to walk a mile, walk two, if somebody slaps you in the face, turn the other cheek. You [conner] seem to have this idealistic view of THE GOVERNMENT that it is on some sort of the same level as god and rules change because, its THE GOVERNMENT, and its AMERICA.


the answer (i think its pretty obvious) is that the sin would be equal. I think if u had to choose (which u wouldnt) anybody would choose the taliban guy but in god's eyes its no different....
well shit
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:17 pm

47.5 wrote:
phe wrote:
I dont know if u KNOW christopher is right or not... but he he is and theres no escaping that


I dont know how you can completely ignore Thou shall not kill, love your enemy, jesus praying for his killers, etc. If somebody tells you to walk a mile, walk two, if somebody slaps you in the face, turn the other cheek. You [conner] seem to have this idealistic view of THE GOVERNMENT that it is on some sort of the same level as god and rules change because, its THE GOVERNMENT, and its AMERICA.


the answer (i think its pretty obvious) is that the sin would be equal. I think if u had to choose (which u wouldnt) anybody would choose the taliban guy but in god's eyes its no different....
well shit


LOL.


Agreed that it SUCKS.
But we need to be peacemakers as much as our human flesh will allow us.

Cool that you agreed with me, Philip.

I'm a little surprised!
Thrilled, Smile, but surprised.

My little brother.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:25 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
LOL.


Agreed that it SUCKS.
But we need to be peacemakers as much as our human flesh will allow us.

Cool that you agreed with me, Philip.

I'm a little surprised!
Thrilled, Smile, but surprised.

My little brother.
...you're still a crazy catholic...
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:19 pm

Quote :
...you're still a crazy catholic...


Agreed here as well.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:40 pm

My original thread was I guess based on your first statement
Quote :
This war should have never been started.

To elaborate on what you guys have already been talking about, killing babies and killing Taliban members is killing yes. Is it equal? I don't agree. We kill babies for selfish reasons (wrong time, wrong person, rape, etc). We were out to eliminate the Taliban because of persecution.

Of course we must promote peace, but I think in the instances you are talking about Jesus being upset with His disciples for "sticking" up for him, are because He knew that He must endure this to do what He came here to do. Not just to promote peace and love, but there are certain situations that He knew noone could help him with and that He must go through what was put before Him alone.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:51 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
My original thread was I guess based on your first statement
Quote :
This war should have never been started.

To elaborate on what you guys have already been talking about, killing babies and killing Taliban members is killing yes. Is it equal? I don't agree. We kill babies for selfish reasons (wrong time, wrong person, rape, etc). We were out to eliminate the Taliban because of persecution.

O.K., so if it's not the same, then at what age can we start killing the babies
so it WILL be equal?
Also, assuming I buy into the "persecution by our enemies" thing (which I don't), then at what point should we start retaliating?
Certainly not if they strike our cheek, as Jesus used that literal example.
Would it be if they use a closed fist?
A knife?
A gun?
An airplane? Was 9-11 the breaking point?
If so, why?

Also, please explain how "escaping persecution" is not selfish.


Quote :
Of course we must promote peace, but I think in the instances you are talking about Jesus being upset with His disciples for "sticking" up for him, are because He knew that He must endure this to do what He came here to do.

What He "came here to do" was to die for our sins, yes.
But that's not all.
He brought a Kingdom of Peace, which is non-violent and loving of enemies.
Limiting Jesus to His death and Resurrection means missing out
on a whole BUNCH of stuff that He said and did.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:57 pm

.... maybe this is a new thread, and a little off topic from the religion debate on war that we seem to have gotten on, but have there been any wars that you are in support of??


if you want it to be a new thread, start it.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:01 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
.... maybe this is a new thread, and a little off topic from the religion debate on war that we seem to have gotten on, but have there been any wars that you are in support of??


No.
Never.

I don't think we need a new thread, as it's still the same concept
of non-violence.


Quote :
if you want it to be a new thread, start it.


I'll do whatever I want to do.
I have the power.
I don't need YOU to remind me.




LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:19 pm

I don't know why and will try and find some support on this subject, but I just don't agree with you at this time... basically on everything you stand for. I really don't know why I talk to you...
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:28 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
I don't know why and will try and find some support on this subject, but I just don't agree with you at this time... basically on everything you stand for. I really don't know why I talk to you...


I hate you, too.


I'm sure you'll find TONS of people who agree with you.
They just won't be named "Jesus".
LOL.

(in my opinion)
jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:03 pm

not a lot of time to research this with my yucky work computer which is sooooooo slow... but let's look at Deuteronomy 20. Read the chapter and give remarks... I can't cut and paste at work so, you will have to look it up on your own.


EDIT : whoa! you can't edit my "quote" that takes away from it being a quote... turd
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:41 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
not a lot of time to research this with my yucky work computer which is sooooooo slow... but let's look at Deuteronomy 20. Read the chapter and give remarks... I can't cut and paste at work so, you will have to look it up on your own.

I'll try to paste here what I think you're referring to a little later.



Quote :
EDIT : whoa! you can't edit my "quote" that takes away from it being a quote... turd


CAN.
Will.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:00 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
I'm a big ol faggot
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:02 pm

47.5 wrote:
I'm too good to post here.

47.5 wrote:
I have better things to do

47.5 wrote:
I will say, though, my last joke was pretty funny, and I know that BeMyIcon found it pretty damn funny.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:39 pm

aw stop being a kiss ass and trying to get me to post more. I post when I can.
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PostSubject: Re: The War   Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:49 pm

i tak it n tha but ahahahahaha
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