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47.5

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PostSubject: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:18 pm

I set up this thread to contain all the off topic discussions that were in other threads.


Do you believe what BMI believes (whatever that may be...) or do you believe that your works are only the sign of you being a believer and works do not affect your passage to heaven in any way?
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:56 pm

Thanks!! I was going to set up this thread but was debating (with myself) on the title.

I believe that works are evidence that you are a believer. As a christian you should WANT to do "good works" - - but have no impact on whether you go to heaven of not. I could be a really nice and sweet person and put everyone first before myself but if I have not found God and believe that He sent His Son to die for my sins and rose again having done that... then I'm just a really nice person going to hell.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:58 pm

POP*ICON wrote:
Thanks!! I was going to set up this thread but was debating (with myself) on the title.

I believe that works are evidence that you are a believer. As a christian you should WANT to do "good works" - - but have no impact on whether you go to heaven of not. I could be a really nice and sweet person and put everyone first before myself but if I have not found God and believe that He sent His Son to die for my sins and rose again having done that... then I'm just a really nice person going to hell.
see: mormons
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:46 pm

We're saved by faith.
Not works.

I wonder why I have to keep saying that, LOL.

But faith without works is dead,
so if I WEREN'T showing my faith THROUGH my works,
it would seem that my faith might be questionable.

Serving others is what Jesus did while here physically,
and one of the cornerstones of Christianity.

What kind of a Christian would I be if all I did
was just go around and preach the text of the Bible?
Jesus healed, performed miracles
and comforted the sick, dying, and depressed.
Jesus didn't ONLY "preach".

I posted this in a different thread as well, and it's something
that seems to get largely ignored in certain places:
Mt. 25:31-46.
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on His left.
Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, and clothe You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Then they themselves will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:00 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
But faith without works is dead
Romans 3:28 states that the law does not do anything toward your salvation. You are justified by your faith; not your works. Your works just show that you have faith. When you have faith, true faith, you naturally show the fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control)
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:03 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
But faith without works is dead
Romans 3:28 states that the law does not do anything toward your salvation. You are justified by your faith; not your works. Your works just show that you have faith. When you have faith, true faith, you naturally show the fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control)



Well, I don't think anyone's going to fully disagree about faith in this room.
LOL.
It's me and three Protestants.

Also, for ME, I know in my heart that God wants me out there serving,
and that's the way to truly know Christ.
So I feel that the "works" that we are commanded to do
are not something to be taken lightly.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:06 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
Also, for ME, I know in my heart that God wants me out there serving,
and that's the way to truly know Christ.
So I feel that the "works" that we are commanded to do
are not something to be taken lightly.
This is true, God wants us working. The only problem is the works you do do not define your salvation. Your salvation is not taken away if you don't work for God.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:14 pm

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
Also, for ME, I know in my heart that God wants me out there serving,
and that's the way to truly know Christ.
So I feel that the "works" that we are commanded to do
are not something to be taken lightly.
This is true, God wants us working. The only problem is the works you do do not define your salvation. Your salvation is not taken away if you don't work for God.


But from where I'm sitting, that's the whole point.
If our faith is REAL, our works should show it.

If I "get saved" as you say, then sit in my apartment for the rest of my life
reading Scripture and "not smoking" and "not drinking" and "not swearing",
yet don't pro-actively help my community and needy,
what kind of "faith" is THAT?
To ME, that's not "The Kingdom".
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:20 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
But from where I'm sitting, that's the whole point.
If our faith is REAL, our works should show it.

If I "get saved" as you say, then sit in my apartment for the rest of my life
reading Scripture and "not smoking" and "not drinking" and "not swearing",
yet don't pro-actively help my community and needy,
what kind of "faith" is THAT?
To ME, that's not "The Kingdom".
When you are saved, you have the want to work for God. If you truly believe all that stuff, you will yearn to work for God because you see it as a privilege.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:55 am

47.5 wrote:
BeMyIcon wrote:
But from where I'm sitting, that's the whole point.
If our faith is REAL, our works should show it.

If I "get saved" as you say, then sit in my apartment for the rest of my life
reading Scripture and "not smoking" and "not drinking" and "not swearing",
yet don't pro-actively help my community and needy,
what kind of "faith" is THAT?
To ME, that's not "The Kingdom".
When you are saved, you have the want to work for God. If you truly believe all that stuff, you will yearn to work for God because you see it as a privilege.


Yeah, I guess.
But it's not like I really WANT to mow my grandpa's lawn, you know?
I do it because I know I'm supposed to, and that doing things like that
will hopefully bring me closer to Christ,
as well as establish a better relationship with my grandpa and grandma,
thus contributing more to the Kingdom that Jesus wants.

Or something like that.
Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:32 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:
Yeah, I guess.
But it's not like I really WANT to mow my grandpa's lawn, you know?
I do it because I know I'm supposed to, and that doing things like that
will hopefully bring me closer to Christ,
as well as establish a better relationship with my grandpa and grandma,
thus contributing more to the Kingdom that Jesus wants.

Or something like that.
Smile
What more is "want" other than weighing out the sides and choosing the most beneficial? You see mowing a lawn a downside requiring effort and time while you see the idea of God being pleased and your grandparents' love as being good and beneficial. You weighed out the sides and decided that mowing the lawn would be more beneficial to you. To want something is to see both sides and decide which is best for you.

We are tempted to not do something but we want to do it once we see the benefits.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:06 pm

Quote :

Yeah, I guess.
But it's not like I really WANT to mow my grandpa's lawn, you know?
I do it because I know I'm supposed to, and that doing things like that
will hopefully bring me closer to Christ,
as well as establish a better relationship with my grandpa and grandma,
thus contributing more to the Kingdom that Jesus wants.

Or something like that.
Smile

This isn't God's kingdom first. And that would be the problem with your phrasing and the reason for this thread : "I do it because I know I'm supposed to,"

Those things should be a DESIRE to show the fruits of your faith, not a desire to get you "in" better with God. Because again... works are fruits of your faith, not what gets you into heaven.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:13 pm

Quote :
This isn't God's kingdom first.

What do you mean by that?


Quote :
Those things should be a DESIRE to show the fruits of your faith, not a desire to get you "in" better with God. Because again... works are fruits of your faith, not what gets you into heaven.


Well, again, I'd refer you back to those verses that seem to be
completely ignored about giving to the needy,
and how it's the same as giving to Jesus.
I'm not saying works get you "in better with God".
Are you claiming that I DID?
LOL.


jocolor


EDIT:
Here again are the verses.
I'm not saying I know exactly what to do with them, either.
I'm just saying that I think God finds it pretty important,
and acting upon these things seems to be huge.
Mt. 25:31-46.
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on His left.
Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, and clothe You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Then they themselves will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:57 pm

Quote :
I do it because I know I'm supposed to, and that doing things like that will hopefully bring me closer to Christ,

that is your answer to:

Quote :
I'm not saying works get in you "in better with God". Are you claiming that I DID?

I guess, yes, that's the way I took it. If your heart isn't doing it for the betterment of the person you are helping and showing a fruit of your faith... then yes, you are doing it to show God "how good you are" .... and he already knows that!


And no, God's Kingdom is heaven.

And...................... I guess I missed where we started talking about the needy?? Wasn't that a different thread, maybe I'll have to reread. But I don't think that has any basis on this debate.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:58 am

POP*ICON wrote:
BMI wrote:
I do it because I know I'm supposed to, and that doing things like that will hopefully bring me closer to Christ,

that is your answer to:

BMI wrote:
I'm not saying works get in you "in better with God". Are you claiming that I DID?

I guess, yes, that's the way I took it. If your heart isn't doing it for the betterment of the person you are helping and showing a fruit of your faith... then yes, you are doing it to show God "how good you are" .... and he already knows that!




Well, I'm not really sure that I'm understanding you.
Hm...
How about this:

Faith saves us, yes.
But what does "faith" mean?
Belief?
Agreement/acceptance that Christ is Lord?
Well, "even the demons believe that", and we know THEIR situation.
There's a "works" dynamic there that I don't fully comprehend yet,
but one that I believe.

Also, "getting in better with God" in quotation marks
is a far different thing that trying to know Jesus better
by helping his children.

Again, I'm sorry, but from what you've typed here:
I guess, yes, that's the way I took it. If your heart isn't doing it for the betterment of the person you are helping and showing a fruit of your faith... then yes, you are doing it to show God "how good you are" .... and he already knows that!

I just don't get what you mean.
My "heart" is a tangled mess.
Sometimes I "like" people, sometimes I hate them.
So if I wake up in the morning ready to mow my grandma's lawn,
but when I GET there, I don't feel like doing it anymore,
shouldn't I STILL DO IT to "show my faith" and to help in
GOD'S KINGDOM even though I DON'T "FEEL" like it?
Show me a person who WANTS to die on a cross for God
and I'll show you someone who needs Prozac. (excluding the obvious)

It ain't like that, suga!
LOL.

Also, the Kingdom of God is wherever the will of God is being done.
It's not a place.
Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:05 pm

it's been a while since I made a long post...


BeMyIcon wrote:
Faith saves us, yes.
But what does "faith" mean?
Belief?
Agreement/acceptance that Christ is Lord?
Well, "even the demons believe that", and we know THEIR situation.
There's a "works" dynamic there that I don't fully comprehend yet,
but one that I believe.
Faith is entirely different than belief. Belief is as you said it; acknowledging that God exists. Faith is letting the Holy Spirit that was planted in you be in control.

And if you don't understand the works dynamic, then how can you successfully debate? Are you making what you have up as you go?

Quote :

Also, "getting in better with God" in quotation marks
is a far different thing that trying to know Jesus better
by helping his children.
Getting in better with God is the exact same thing as getting a better relationship with Jesus. Jesus/God wants you to have a relationship with Him and by having that relationship, you are technically getting in better with Him.

Quote :

Again, I'm sorry, but from what you've typed here: (quote here)
I just don't get what you mean.
She means that if you aren't doing your work to help the person you are helping (like if you weren't mowing your grandmother's lawn to help her) and you're doing it for God, then all you are doing is trying to show off for God. God wants you to help other people but enjoy and want to do it. He doesn't want you to prove yourself to Him because He already knows how good you are.

Quote :

My "heart" is a tangled mess.
Sometimes I "like" people, sometimes I hate them.
So if I wake up in the morning ready to mow my grandma's lawn,
but when I GET there, I don't feel like doing it anymore,
shouldn't I STILL DO IT to "show my faith" and to help in
GOD'S KINGDOM even though I DON'T "FEEL" like it?
Who are you showing your faith to? God? God knows your faith. Do your works for people and find joy in that.

Quote :
Show me a person who WANTS to die on a cross for God
and I'll show you someone who needs Prozac. (excluding the obvious)
There are actually a ton of people who not only would do that, but did. Also, according to legend, Peter was to be crucified but he didn't find himself worthy of dying the same way as Jesus so he was hung by his (I think) toenails or feet or something.

Quote :
It ain't like that, suga!
LOL.
Actually, it is.

Quote :

Also, the Kingdom of God is wherever the will of God is being done.
It's not a place.
Smile
The earth is Satan's kingdom actually. We are God's. I don't know all about what yall were debating on that, but that's what I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:14 pm

47.5 wrote:

And if you don't understand the works dynamic, then how can you successfully debate? Are you making what you have up as you go?

I'm [hopefully] sharpening my argument and knowledge.
I thought THAT was the main reason for debate,
not to "see who's right", LOL.
There are aspects of EVERYTHING that I "debate" that I don't
FULLY UNDERSTAND.
To think otherwise is foolish.
Just because I can't COMPLETELY DEFINE something I believe
doesn't make it any less believable or less worthy that what
someone else believes.

"Faith is letting the Holy Spirit that was planted in you be in control".
I've never heard a definition like that before.
Where's that from?

I think faith is a pretty complicated thing, actually.
I'm not so sure we can just summarize it in a sentence.
Maybe.
But I don't think I can.


Quote :
She means that if you aren't doing your work to help the person you are helping (like if you weren't mowing your grandmother's lawn to help her) and you're doing it for God, then all you are doing is trying to show off for God. God wants you to help other people but enjoy and want to do it. He doesn't want you to prove yourself to Him because He already knows how good you are.

Well, occasionally when I'm trying to help someone,
I don't even LIKE the damn person.
Can't STAND them.
What does that say about me?
LOL.


Quote :
Who are you showing your faith to? God?

Yes.

Quote :
God knows your faith. Do your works for people and find joy in that.

Well, personally speaking, I believe my faith is SHIT
and my gratitude for God's grace SUCKS
if I'm sitting on my bed all day staring at the wall.
I need to get my butt out there and try to be a part of God's Kingdom.

Quote :
There are actually a ton of people who not only would do that, but did.

The angle I was coming from was if someone were just sitting around
the house thinking they'd like to die on a cross someday
and how awesome persecution is.
I should have been more clear, I guess.

Quote :
The earth is Satan's kingdom actually. We are God's. I don't know all about what yall were debating on that, but that's what I think.


Well, to me, isn't it all about God's Kingdom?
That's the whole point of everything.

I was speaking of that earlier, and Lucy made a comment about
"this" (and I don't know what she meant by that) NOT BEING
God's Kingdom.
I was just clarifying that.
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PostSubject: Re: Works vs. Faith   Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:41 pm

BeMyIcon wrote:

I've never heard a definition like that before.
Where's that from?
My comparative religions class. I'm probably brutally killing the idea he wanted us to get, but it was something like that. He was talking about how the Holy Spirit is in each of us always and the less we keep a reign on Him, the more righteous and with God we are. I applied that to the faith concept.

Quote :

I think faith is a pretty complicated thing, actually.
I'm not so sure we can just summarize it in a sentence.
Maybe.
But I don't think I can.
I think that we actually make it more complicated than it really is. I'm sure if worded correctly, you could define it in one sentence easily.



Quote :
Well, occasionally when I'm trying to help someone,
I don't even LIKE the damn person.
Can't STAND them.
What does that say about me?
LOL.
I'm not talking about the person. I mean you should enjoy doing things for others regardless of what they are like. Thank God that you are given the chance to help them and pray that they will be more tolerable or make you stronger.

Recently, while reading through Acts, I found this. When the apostles were challenged and persecuted, they actually thanked God for it. This amazed me because I could apply it to everything. Whenever you find hardship, don't complain, praise God. By going through the hardship, He is making you better. Enjoy your work for other people. Don't do it for God, do it for those people.

Quote :

Quote :
Who are you showing your faith to? God?

Yes.
You show God your faith through your love for another. By working for someone else and not trying to impress God, you are pleasing Him. What He wants is our fellowship; not our labor.


Quote :

Quote :
God knows your faith. Do your works for people and find joy in that.

Well, personally speaking, I believe my faith is SHIT
and my gratitude for God's grace SUCKS
if I'm sitting on my bed all day staring at the wall.
I need to get my butt out there and try to be a part of God's Kingdom.
Fine, you see yourself as useless by not working hard. That's good. God is probably calling you to work for Him. Just correct your motives and you will be a much larger benefit to yourself, God, and everybody you help.

Quote :
The angle I was coming from was if someone were just sitting around
the house thinking they'd like to die on a cross someday
and how awesome persecution is.
I should have been more clear, I guess.
Well, actually, the apostles (as I said earlier this post) did want to do everything they could for God. Some people today would too. In fact, it states in the Bible (because apparently this became an issue) that you should not ask to be persecuted. The Bible says you shouldn't ask to be persecuted or martyred. That's crazy. If the Bible commands you not to, apparently it is a big deal and it is being done.


Quote :

Quote :
The earth is Satan's kingdom actually. We are God's. I don't know all about what yall were debating on that, but that's what I think.


Well, to me, isn't it all about God's Kingdom?
That's the whole point of everything.

I was speaking of that earlier, and Lucy made a comment about
"this" (and I don't know what she meant by that) NOT BEING
God's Kingdom.
I was just clarifying that.
This is kind of confusing me. I don't really understand why you're stressing this "God's kingdom" thing or what you even believe it to be. Do you mean our bodies, the earth, or something entirely different?
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